I cut and pasted the comment below from the previous subject. Anyone wanna tackle it?
Personally, I like how the poster asks a question, then immediately responds as though someone had answered it - incorrectly. ("See, you don't really know.") I also like how they've ended by insulting anyone who disagrees with them, and told them that they have their heads up their asses. (Winning friends and influencing people.) As for the mythical second well...Well, anyway, here it is. Feel free to share the good news with the Craig Fulton Fan Club...
Bullshit, and Fulton is not a liar. You folks are so focused on your hatred, deserved or not, that you are blind to the true situation regarding water flow. For example, do any of you know how much the domestic water (in CFS) the City of Port Angeles uses? How does that relate in terms of total stream flow? See, you don't really know. Rather, you're full of ignorance and fear. The truth is the river won't go dry this year, and there will be drinking water available. What's going to happen is that fish will likely die, just as Fulton alluded to. Evil Nippon may have to shut down for a few weeks, but that's not a certainty. In the longer term, Port Angeles will likely dig a second collector well to supplement the existing Ranney Well. I like some of things I read on this post, but get a grip and do your research rather than pulling facts out of the orifice where some of your heads normally reside...
Who you gonna call? Ranney collectors!
Who you gonna get to pay for it? Tax collectors!
Let's start with your morning water level up date. as of 9:30 am, the Elwha had dropped to 408 cfs. Yesterday, at 3 pm, it was at 425. Will it get into the 300s by this evening? Will it get into the 300s before the official start of summer?
ReplyDeleteThe Ranney well. As you see from the diagram. it relies on water from the river. Yes, the bottom of the well is below the river's gravel bed, which the system uses as a form of pre-screening.
No water, no function.
Even if the river just meanders over to the far side of the channel the Ranney Well is rendered useless.
DeleteRemember, the Public works guy said “fish viability is threatened at 300 cfs”..
ReplyDeleteAnd, how many months of hot dry weather do we have ahead?
Thank you, Glen Cutler, for telling us all about it with your condescending tone and aggressive nonsense.
ReplyDeleteAquifers are a little more complicated than ground water soaking in, Annon 9:47. The water slowly percolates down into the aquifer by travelling in a very windy path through the pores that are connected together. When water infiltrates into the aquifer from above it is said to have "recharged" the aquifer. Some aquifers can be recharged in a matter of hours. In others the water travels so slowly that it make take hundreds or thousands of years to make it into the aquifer. The same holds true for the amount of time it takes for the groundwater to naturally move through and out of an aquifer. It's not as simple as you'd hope it is -- and the river has nothing to do (or little to do) with the aquifer. And, if the city is talking about drawing water from a big deep well, ..something they can't possibly know the contents of....and you're talking stream run off, it is two different subjects.
ReplyDeleteGenerally, an "aquifer" is a name for a layer of porous materials layered underground in between less permeable materials. Here, what is called "glacial till" is often found, which the City often references when it is trying to justify projects, or argues against, depending on what they are trying to get support for.
DeleteYou will remember how rain gardens were not viable, because the glacial till in the areas' soils made it impossible for rain water to soak in. But, at the same time, the City reduced water rates to encourage residents to water their lawns, because the soils were so loose that the water just drained right through it. Remember?
We can talk hydrologic system theory all day long. There is one fact you seem to want to overlook. How fast the flow levels in the river are dropping.
Remember, the watershed for the Elwha is about 321 square miles. It incorporates all those "aquifers", streams, creeks, ponds and what ever else in that water shed, ALL of which has been releasing water via gravity down slope to the river, and out to the strait.
It isn't waiting. It flows every second of every day.
Theory is great. But observable reality trumps theory every time. The reality is the river level, over the last 48 hours alone, has dropped 69 cfs. From an all time record low (for this time of year) of 477 cfs.
With 321 square miles of watershed to be draining from, the lower parts of the Elwha, where the flows are measured, tell the final story, Maybe aliens are beaming up the water from the upper areas of the water shed, before it gets a chance to flow further down stream. What ever the reason, the reality is the flows are declining rapidly.
If there were lots of stored water upstream, you would see a "moderating" effect that would offset the constant flows on their way out to the Strait, and the flows wouldn't be declining so fast. But since it is dropping so fast, so early in the year, there isn't much tangible evidence of that.
Also bear in mind how small the area between the slopes of the mountain, and the salt water really is. This isn't the midwest of the US, with hundreds and thousands of miles of flat lands in all directions.
As said. At the current rates, we won't have to wait too long to see what the situation is. Really, I hope you are right. Who wants the disaster that seems to be upon us? But there is no evidence to believe that the river will flow until fall rains return, and people should make plans for the worst.
If Port Angeles living
DeleteYou must try
My advice to you
Is rent, don't buy
At some point, we will have to look at this whole event in retrospect and think about how it was handled.
ReplyDeleteWill there be calls for the City Manager and Public Works Director to be fired? Will that be justified? Can their actions be deemed an adequate and appropriate response to the issues facing the community? Should the community, that pays their high salaries, be able to expect more than what is being done (which is next to nothing).
As we've seen in other communities, the city often acts to warn it's residents of pending or potential disasters. Think of geotechnical studies that identify potential landslides. Flood plains. Storm warnings. Flooding warnings. The events haven't happened yet, and the impacts are unknown, but the city makes a great effort to inform their residents, so that they can pack up things, move things they value to higher ground, sand bag their properties in advance, etc.
But, not in Port Angeles. The "update" that the Public Works Director bothered to throw together was in response to what he deemed "the misinformation that I will attempt to clarify." It was yet another effort to defend and justify the city and it's actions, instead of serving the interests and needs of it's residents.
Yes, let's see what people have to say about these issues come October.
You're kidding right?
DeletePort Angeles has had one bad decision after the other. Was anyone fired over the turd tank? Was anyone fired because of the wasteful Harborworks? Was anyone fired over the ongoing garbage debacle? The mayor who wanted to shut off water to push a political agenda was "fired" by the voters, but somehow he managed to sneak right back into the city council.
It'd be nice if there was some accountability here, but I sure as hell am not going to hold my breath.
Elwha flows are measured at the USGS McDonald Bridge gauge, at river mile 8.6, about 1.1 miles upstream from Hwy 101. Little River and Indian Creek flow into the Elwha at river mile 7.8 and 7.5. So, if the tributaries don't run dry, they will add a bit of water to the river's main stem as it flows past the city's intake point.
ReplyDeleteOne strategy for assuring a steady water supply for Port Angeles this summer would be to drain Lake Sutherland via Indian Creek. That would address the aquatic weed problem in Lake Sutherland, too.
I don't understand why everybody isn't really concerned with what is going on. Am I missing something? The PDN ran endless stories about that dumb contest, and they keep the Lincoln story alive, but a city without water? Not a peep from anyone, except here.
ReplyDeleteWhat am I missing? Isn't this an important topic?
Shut your mouth, you with the bad news!
DeleteYes, people do know how much water the City of Port Angeles uses. The figures appear every year in water quality reports that are sent out with utility bills.
ReplyDeleteDaily water use for the entire municipal drinking water system averages under 3 million gallons/day - which converts to around 4.5 cfs. A lot of that water - over 10% - is wasted through leaky distribution mains, a statistic that is also included in the annual report.
Then there's the industrial water system that serves the Nippon Mill and formerly served the Rayonier Mill. It is capable of delivering 64 million gallons/day (100 cfs); but probably now only delivers only about 20% of that to Nippon, after leaking a few million gallons along the way.
How much water leaks out of the pipeline between the river and Ediz Hook is unknown, because the city doesn't meter the Nippon mill's water use.
The National Park Service does meter the amount diverted from the river at the start of the industrial pipeline, however, so the leakage calculation would be simple to make.
The City has never cared much about conserving water or the environment, though, so why depart from tradition now? Why bother to invest in water system infrastructure repairs and prevent water waste? The river will never run dry.
And, as of 3 pm, the river is now down to 403.
ReplyDeleteSummer doesn't officially start until tomorrow morning, around 9:30.
Will the river hit the 300 range by then?
Com’on folks! We can get into the 300s before the start of summer, tomorrow morning.
ReplyDeleteThen, we can set a new milestone! Up until now, we have only been able to hit the 300s a small number of times over the last 14 years, and it has always been in the late summer. Now we have the opportunity to establish a new record, a new milestone: the first time we’ve hit the 300s BEFORE summer even starts.
Let's assume a Stage 4 or 5 water use restriction is declared. Who investigates and enforces on infractions? What, if any, are the penalties?
ReplyDeleteStage 5: A regional-disaster declaration could be declared, prompting water rationing and emergency water distribution.
DeleteThe council could ration water used by residential users to a certain number of gallons per day per person within a dwelling unit and could ration the amount used by nonresidents and impose any other rationing deemed necessary.
Water restriction scofflaws can be given a warning for a first violation, be required to have a flow-restriction device installed for a second violation and be subject to water shutoff and a $100 turn-on charge for a third and subsequent violations.
Too bad there are no smart meters to tell city hall immediately when someone exceeds their water allotment.
DeleteFASCINATING article about this dry, dire situation in the PDN today. It was amazing how they would A) Enumerate all the ways this is an unprecedented, alarming situation, and then B) Pivot right to saying no one is going to run out of water, anywhere, any way.
ReplyDeleteNothing to see here people. Move along, move along...
In any case, given all that we know now, not to mention what we can sensibly anticipate, a Stage 2 alert (flyers in your utility bill) is woefully inadequate.
Why no hand-wringing over Port Townsend's water situation?
ReplyDeleteUmm, I dunno. Maybe because this blog focuses on Port Angeles? The name of it is "Port Angeles Unearthed"?
DeleteBut, you're right. Port Townsend is facing similar problems. As Forks is. As Seiku Clallam Bay is. As private properties all over the region are.
Shhhhhhhhhhh, we have real estate to sell.
ReplyDeleteCK
ReplyDeletePA Unearthed seems to be getting more and more boring as time goes by. While you have a handful of regular, usual commentators, their routine, ranting comments get more and more boring too.
Yawning in PA.
SO sorry that the idea of running out of one of life's essentials - water - is just SO boring to you. I do apologize.
DeleteIn an effort to counteract this deadly boredom you're suffering from, I offer this quote from the Ripley Report, as a sample of some other, more "exciting" writing concerning events in Clallam County:
"Editorial footnote: Many of the candidates that responded to my question on the decision of the County Treasure to withhold these funds were favorable to that decision. So why is the current County Commission seems hell bent in giving this grant funding? I have a hunch that the Treasure will be found correct in her decision, and it will end up being drugged in a long court battle. Still no word on what the State Attorney Office has to say on the matter. So I would keep my eyes on the State Attorney General office.
So, I hope we get the Composite Recycling Center here in Port Angeles, but it has to be operated by private business, not under governmental management. As for the feud between the County Commission and County Treasure, it will be interesting to watch how all that plays out. Many times something like this could end up causing a bad working environment, and resentment all around, usually end up costing someone to loose their job, or cause them to resign out of principle. ---Peter Ripley, Publisher"
Wow! And he ran for City Council, too.
DeleteI look forward to the long drugged court battle!
DeleteThe Pride of Port Angeles.
Delete"...that the Treasure will be found ..."
DeleteArrrrrr, Matey! Aye, 'tis the buried Treasure we've long been a-searchin' of! An' me old shipmate, Peter Ripley be possessed of the map to it's location. ye'd best be givin' me that map, Ripley, or ye'll be walkin' the plank!
can we just get the drugs without the court battle?
DeleteAnd, the river did drop into the 300 range over night. Now at 392 cfs. Before summer starts.
ReplyDeleteAnd, the Dungeness dropped to 167 cfs by the start of summer.
This means we go into the next 4 months of hot dry weather starting at a record setting low level of water.
Yes, the article cites little specific information for the public, but instead just says levels are low.
The levels continue to drop at amazingly fast rates. Any responsible water professional should be very concerned. To witness how fast a 321 square mile watershed has evacuated is indeed amazing.
Let's see what the headlines are, mid July.
The City? PDN? They say what?
ReplyDeleteLet's think back about what they have told the public about, well, pretty much anything.
Should we start with the most recent debacle, or go back a few years? What has the city told the public about the garbage dump? And, the PDN? The Incubator? The EDC? The PADA? The Gateway? The "most expensive project", the CSO boondoogle? And, the PDN? Harbor Works? PA United? Revitalize PA? The "conference center" downtown? The Lincoln?The PDN?
All these things (and so much more) got glowing endorsements from the City, and the PDN. But, look at the reality. Ill conceived at best, and not based in reality. All failures in concept and execution.
And, here we go again.
Perhaps when the CFS readings get down to the same levels as the average IQ of City Council members, the City will be roused into action. Or not. In any case, it is always - ALWAYS - too little, too late with the City of Port Angeles.
DeleteAs I stated earlier, their tepid response has been one that might - MIGHT - suit a temporary situation. It utterly fails, however, when one considers that the numbers they were given were immediately outdated, and that this situation will only get worse, more harsh, harder to cope with, before there is any reasonable hope of it getting better.
Fall rains are unlikely to fall until...Fall.
At this rate, it will be interesting to see where things are by the next council meeting. For instance, now we're on the "When will Nippon shut down" countdown.
DeleteIt was fascinating reading in the PDN this morning, to see what the impacts of Nippon shutting down for 4 or 5 months would have on the city.That many employees getting laid off? Who knew! And, that much of a hit to the city's financial structure? Those programs no longer being able to be funded?
And, after the co-gen BioMass plant has been shut down for so long, who would have thought the contracts they signed to deliver power would be an issue?
And the quotes about the situation in Forks. Of course the city attorney is the go-to guy on the issue.
That PDN. Digging so deep to help residents understand.
Since June 1 the river has dropped about 4-1/2 inches. Yep, we're all gonna die.
ReplyDeleteCan I quote you in about a month? LOL!
DeleteSeems like a good bet. CFS is the product of depth and speed. The river is slowing, not dropping much.
DeleteSo, even if what you are saying about the level of the river not dropping is actually true, your premise that the situation isn't going to result in the river running dry makes no sense at all.
DeleteThe only way there is moving water in the river is because it is being replaced by more water taking the place of the water that has flowed on out to the Strait. If it "slows" to the point of no movement, that is what most of us call a "pond". Between Nippon and the City, that pond will get sucked dry in short order.
CFS represents the "cubic feet per second" of water moving past the measuring point.
I'll be sure to remind you of your views in a couple of weeks, and we can see how they stack up to reality.
From the PDN today:
ReplyDelete"Forks
On the West End, Forks takes its water from two wells. Levels in both are lower than usual for mid-June, Rod Fleck, city planner/attorney, said Wednesday.
The levels are similar to what is usually seen in late July, Fleck said.
“July and August will be real interesting,” he said."
But, the PUD tells us that the West End isn't reliant on snow pack, and the rainfall was near normal, so they don't have anything to worry about.
" July and August will be real interesting"? We're 10 days away from July.
How about September and October? They expected to be "interesting", too?
How about a new thread about the Paradise Fire on the Queets which appears to be taking off based on the amount of smoke that has appeared in the last hour.
ReplyDeleteBoy, is Tom Harper ever a copycat and a fool. Why does he bother? Go back to bed, Tom.
ReplyDeleteToday the PDN said that the citizens of PA are consuming MORE water this summer than normal. Our response to being told to conserve is to consume more... I don't understand why the city isn't doing more to educate citizens of the need to conserve?
ReplyDelete